What kind of religion do you want?
Is was talking about religion over lunch with a colleague. I don’t do this often and I don’t jump in there, evangelistic guns a-blazing. Rather, I listen, try to get where they’re coming from, then pray for them. And for me in my relationship with them. Sounds like a cop-out, I know. But we’re not all born evangelists and apologists.
But the discussion -well, not really a discussion, more a diatribe (have I used that correctly?) of what he thought. Which was along the lines of if he was to follow a religion, it would probably be Islam, because at least their book was written by one guy, and they at least have rules which make sense and are good to live by. And has a huge focus on family and community.
Which made me think… the rules are what I find deeply UNattractive about Islam (well that and the suicide-bombing jihadists and the women-suppressing male leaders. But let’s not talk about the Crusades, that’s not what this post is about). The same with Judaism. But Islam has been hijacked too much for his liking - the true, original Islam is what he’d like. And he’s right. It has. In many areas, Islam has been hijacked by the prevailng culture. So much greatness came out of the early Islamic/Ottoman Empire: culture, science, the works.
Of course, Christianity’s not been hijacked, has it?! I (gently) put that point across. The incorporation of pagan/Roman/Greek ideals - the fact that in the West we celebrate Easter on a pagan feast day, not around Passover, which is when it actually happened. Christmas is another hijacked pagan feast day. Has it assimilated so much of other rituals and superstitions that Christianity has lost its own saltiness?
But there’s often an inner resistance to Christianity in the West. Apparently it’s downfall was the incorporation of materialism, individualism and capitalism, according to my colleague. You don’t say?! That and excommunication - I can’t believe people actually had the gall to do that! Because only a few centuries ago, to excommunicate someone was to say they no longer belonged to society; because society was Christendom, was the church, and to be no longer part of the church meant you had no place. You became a non-person in the eyes of society. I’m glad we’ve moved on from that.
But getting back to my point about rules: we have 2 as Christians.
- Love God
- Love others
Everything we do is a part of that (even though we f**k it up so often). It’s about the heart of what believe, the motivation. Not because we’re told to do so. And that’s what makes Christianity so freeing. But also, I guess, makes it look so woolly and wishy-washy. There’re no hard and fast do’s and don’t’s (other than the 10 Commandments, and we all get hung up over our neighbours ass when we talk about them) that you see in Islam. There’s been a certain amount of rhetoric over the last few years about why young men become attracted to Islam, become fundamentalistic suicide bombers. And there’s a lot to be said for an element of certainty in a world that can appear rootless, drifting and excluding to young men of a certain age and race. It can offer that family support in an age of broken families. It can offer a set of rules and codes of behaviour in a society that looks out only for Number One, and that thinks as long as you feel good about it, it’s OK.
But then there are my friends who believe in God. But that’s it. Jesus? Probably not, because He’s harder to get your head - and heart - around.
I don’t really know where I’m going with this. There’s a ‘why?’, I guess. Why do you or I believe? And a ‘what?’: what do we believe?
What & Why. What a merry pair of bedfellows they make. I think they snuggle up with Faith, because without her, they don’t make sense on her own. And that’s what people so often miss or haven’t experience.
Just for the sake of information - Easter is determined by a method that is trying to calculate Passover - the Jewish feast that Jesus went to Jerusalem to celebrate - it is near the start of spring and therefore in the British Isles has eventually become named after a pagan goddess - in europe they use derivations of the word for passover…
Christmas was a pagan feast day so even the christians had the day off to celebrate something or other so they chose Jesus’ birth… other things that have crept in since then are from our various pagan cults but we should allow that at the beginning it was the roman equivalent of a Bank Holiday for the early church…
Does Christianity have no focus on family?
Thanks for that, helpful.
A lot can be made of the family focus of Islam - but I think a lot of it is cultural. I don’t think we focus on the family in quite the same way in the West, but you’d probably find a similar focus in other countries less Westernised. I read a few other blogs from other countries and they talk about how Westernisation is changing their culture in a less than positive way. So much of what we call religion has become caught up in culture that it can be hard to figure out which is which.
And Jesus widened it too: ‘While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”‘ Matthew 12:46-50
Calia , if you interested ,you can read the book “What did Jesus really say”? by Mishael Abdullah Al-Kadhi
This detailed book shows how the true teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) in the Bible conform to that of Islam and also how Prophet Muhammad was prophecied in the Bible.
http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/what_did_jesus_really_say.pdf
Because of course the Koran which was written centuries after the gospels has a better view of Jesus than the New Testament?
The Quran , is the last word of GOD REVEALED to Prophet Muhammad through angel Gabriel .He is the last Prophet sent by GOD, following Adam , Noah , Moses, Abraham, Jesus .IT is not the word ofProphet Muhammad. That’s what we believe in .
In fact the Quran CORRECTS many of the current beliefs of Christianity and tells us what Jesus actually taught.
You may read the book “What did Jesus really Say ?” for a detailed study of the comparative beliefs of Islam and Christianity , the link of which is there above.
As a muslim I can say that if Christianity is defined as the religion/teachings of Jesus Christ , then Muslims are more “Christian” than Christians themselves . Shocking ?
Read the the book “What did Jesus really say ?”
In fact the Quran CORRECTS many of the current beliefs of Christianity and tells us what Jesus actually taught.
You may read the book “What did Jesus really Say ?” for a detailed study of the comparative beliefs of Islam and Christianity , the link of which is there above.
As a muslim I can say that if Christianity is defined as the religion/teachings of Jesus Christ , then Muslims are more “Christian” than Christians themselves . Shocking ?
Read the the book “What did Jesus really say ?”
Well, some christians believe that the Old and New Testaments were ‘God-breathed’ or more prosaically - inspired by the Holy Spirit, being part of God (Trinity… - it’s what christians, well at least most of us, believe) So if you want to trade ‘Not the words of human mind…’ or something then we have to declare that these statements are as good as the other…
After all that though - Angel Gabriel or God… or we can look at who wrote what when and how good are the manuscript traditions….
I would agree that in some ways islamic teaching follows what Jesus taught much more closely than some churches - the teaching on lending or borrowing with interest being a rather good example. And also the teachings on supporting our brothers is often failed by christians where muslims seem much better at that - but then we also have different cultural backgrounds and realities and if you apply that you can wind up with an interesting conversation.
I think that ‘What Jesus really said was in the Gospels…’ but so often we, as christians, look at an issue from somebody else’s teachings so we don’t have to be that radical… and there we fall.
As muslims we do believe that God REVEALED a book to Jesus which was called “Injeel”(Gospel) through the agency of the Holy Spirit( the Holy Spirit is simply a title of Angel Gabriel in Islam).
We are taught that this “Injeel” of Jesus underwent serious distortion, addition , manipulation by the people who were supposed to preserve it (the Church), to the point that the original message of God was on the brink of being obliterated.
You would be surprised to see that the current teachings of Christianity….especiacally Trinity, are not the teachings of the Bible or Jesus at all.
But we also believe that the current Bibles that are present today do contain the original religion of Jesus .
In the Quran there is a complete chapter on Mary , the mother of Jesus, and there are several other verses on Jesus Christ (pbuh)
You may read the Chapter “Jesus in the Quran” in the book “what did Jesus really say ?” the link is
http://www.kalamullah.com/Books/what_did_jesus_really_say.pdf
However I advise you that you read the book from the beginning to get a proper picture.
Mazin
[...] religion, sir? There appears to be an interesting discussion going on in the comments of my post on religion at the moment. Pop along and have a look. Feel free to join in the [...]
Hmm,when I have more time I might take a peek [which means devouring it from end to end]as I’ve heard these things before and still managed to bite the bullet and stick with Jesus…
but to some of your points - The Gospels were written by disciples of Christ after He left in a rather interesting fashion and that they were written by the help of God - having read the New Testament and quite bit of the Old - the trinity does fit within those pages without any problematic juggling and in a way that makes more sense out of them - taking ‘The Great Commission’ from Jesus - baptise them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Elsewhere Jesus says that the Father and the Son are one - and Jesus identified himself as the Son… and then there’s also the ‘Helper’ in John’s Gospel and then in Acts there’s a bit of an arrival of the Helper and becomes identified as the Holy Spirit…
The trinity wasn’t so much as something said more of something underlying the new testament.
If you want a debate on how the manuscripts of the Gospels survived and weathered the battering of years then I’m happy to oblige… but isn’t it also true that there is some debate over the early manuscripts of the Quran?
Well I’ve just had a quick look - far from as thorough as a peak, I admit - and am quite interested in how, Mazin, you can refer to this book so uncritically - the first page opens with a quote from St. Paul; Romans ch 3 vs 7 “For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? ” to find the nearest translation used by the author - how can someone who is honestly trying t build up a thorough picture then miss out verse 8 which finishes Paul’s point - Romans ch 3 vs 8 “And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.” using the New King James Version.
A little clearer is the New International Version - UK which has for Romans ch 3 vs 7&8 - “7 Someone might argue, If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?
8 Why not say— as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say— Let us do evil that good may result? Their condemnation is deserved.”
I may return to this book but to start off a book of ‘honest scholarship’ with a quote that’s been taken out of context and then use a translation that makes it seem as bad as possible does not fill me with confidence for the rest of the pages…
Trinity is the belief the that the Father is God, the Son(Jesus) is God and the Holy Spirit is God…however they are not 3 gods but one God. It is related to the claim the Jesus is God .
However, the very Bible which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for this doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. You are urged to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context:
1. God is All Knowing… but Jesus was not.
When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, “but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father.” (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.
2. God is All-Powerful… but Jesus was not.
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, “Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do…” (John 5:19) Again he said, “I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me.” (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
3. God does not have a God… but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.” (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn’t this be read “Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?” Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord’s prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt.” (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
4. According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans… but Jesus was flesh and blood.
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, ” No man hath seen God at any time.” (John 1:1
“Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.” (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24, “God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God ant any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.
5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him… but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28, “My Father is greater than I.” When someone referred to him as a “good master” in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded, “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God…” Further more, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, “I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me.” (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, “not my will but thine be done,” and in John 5:30, “I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me.” That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
Conclusion
The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?
My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is One, not three. He is a perfect unity.
If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.
What is the word of God about Jesus in the Quran?
A. Regarding the Sonship of Jesus:
That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He but says to it “Be”, and it is. (Qur’an 19:34-35)
And they say, ‘The All-Merciful has taken unto Himself a son.’ You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but he comes to the All-Merciful as a servant. (Qur’an 19:88-93)
Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God’s sight, is as Adam’s likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, “Be”, and he was. (Qur’an 3:59)
People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not ‘Three’, Refrain, better it is for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him – that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, God suffices for a guardian. (Qur’an 4:171)
B. Regarding Jesus being God:
And when God said, ‘O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say unto men, “Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?” He said, ‘To You be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what You did command me: “Serve God, my Lord and your Lord.” And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness over everything. (Qur’an 5:116-117)
C. Regarding the Crucifixion of Jesus:
And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, and for their saying ‘We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God’… yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they did not slay him of certainty… no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them. (Qur’an 4:156-159).
//Elsewhere Jesus says that the Father and the Son are one//
This is the verse from John 10:30 which Christians claim to support the doctrine of the trinity . This verse , is however quoted out of context .Read about this over here
http://www.quranmalayalam.com/program/jesus/ch1.2.2.7.html
On “the Great Commission”
The verse is from Matthew 28:19 about which Christian scholars tell us that the latter part of the verse is a later insertion .
http://www.quranmalayalam.com/program/jesus/ch1.2.2.1.html
//and Jesus identified himself as the Son//
The use of the term “son of God” when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus’ people. There are several verses in the Bible to prove this.
http://www.quranmalayalam.com/program/jesus/ch1.2.3.2.html
verse Romans 3:7
Well what I recently learnt is the verse is not mentioned in a later edition of this book , which dates from May 1996 , and this book is from april 1995( signed in the preface on Pg 13)
The reason why this verse is not present in the later edition is that most probably some reader might have raised this obection(as you have raised) before and it was subsequently removed.
I haven’t referred to it uncritically , I have read the newer edition of this book which doesn’t contain this verse.
Another problem was that I couldn’t find the later edition of this book in pdf format on the internet. pdf format is available of the old edition which you are reading now .
The 1996 later edition is only available in html format on few sites .
One of them is
http://www.quranmalayalam.com/program/jesus/contents.html
You can check this out and see for yourself that the verse is not quoted.
I hope this resolves the issue.
Mazin
If you wish you can switch over to the newer edition of that book on Jesus which is in html format .
http://www.quranmalayalam.com/program/jesus/index.html
The reason is because it is formatted and written in a
better way and 2 additonal chapters are added to it.
Well, interesting and serious - so we come down to the stuff of the arguments… I’ll try to answer so that you may accept that I am not wrong. I’ll even try to answer your points in the same order… [a rare honour]
But let me ask the question - Do you think that you can know the very stuff and mind of God? Does God not reach beyond our comprehension? Or is the divine able to be measured and placed in it’s box?
To try to answer your points…
If God is All-Knowing and a trinity then as a collection they must know everything but not as individual parts. Jesus does obviously at some points know more than is normal - the history of the Samaritan Woman and that one of the disciples was sitting under a fig tree before they met. True you can always say that that’s nothing more than a prophet could know… but if you assume that Jesus was not God then his ignorance of anything does give evidence for Jesus not being God - a matter of assumptions for if Jesus was part of the trinity then it doesn’t matter that Jesus be in ignorance of everything as long as the other two parts, between them or just one part knows everything…
Again with the context - reading the whole of Chapter 5 of John’s Gospel shows a different tale…
One of the Divine aspects of God in the Jewish tradition was that God could not stop working (although on the seventh day he could, perhaps take it easier…
and Jesus in verse 17 says that he too is always working - if Jesus wasn’t/isn’t God then this is blasphemy. True he does go on to say that he can’t do stuff but can be the judge - which is again a divine aspect - which is why when Jesus forgave a man his sins the locals reacted, hmmm, badly [Matthew 9 vs 2 cf Luke 7vs48 and then Luke 23 vs 34]… No-one has seen or heard the Father - but how do you then explain Elijah speaking to the Spirit of the Lord in 1 Kings 19 - which does differ from the Angel of the Lord from earlier in the chapter - does continuity mean nothing to god? So I can easily say - it was either the Holy Spirit or Jesus before he was born… but I seem to be getting ahead of myself.
If, suddenly, I decide you are right and I am wrong - I may ask you, Mazin, What should I do? and I may stop doing things I could do to remain in agreement/harmony with you - because I want to, this doesn’t mean that I’ve handed any power or authority over me to prevent me from my old life - it is born from an inner willingness to be one on certain issues. John ch 5 vs 30…
If I was talking to a man I would call him, or her [as I like using it as the generic] my equal but I’d still call her, or him a man. If, by a leap of wild imagination, I was part of God then I’d refer to other bits of the Godhead (to use some christian terminology) as God because that’s what they are. In some times I may refer to them specifically - like say the Father or the Spirit. This is merely an argument from assumption of whether or not Jesus was part of a trinity (in which case there’s no problem) or not… it doesn’t make any problems for a believer in Jesus and obviously no problem for someone who doesn’t believe Jesus is/was God…
No-one has seen God - well John 1 vs 1 reads thus ‘In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.’ I tried finding the verse that you quoted - please check your references - this verse is seen as one of the most fundamental in describing how part of the trinity, defying logic of man, works… One of the things we forget at our peril is what Jesus said to whom for therein the meaning can become clearer. Within the society of his time and place the first born sons was accepted to have the same authority as their fathers - therefore Jesus saying that his father is greater really means no more than Jesus was a) humble and b) trying to make them understand that Jesus was only the son - as in not more powerful than his father…
To sum up, I give two positive arguments - that Jesus forgave sins in a divine manner without needing recourse to any other authority and that none of your points disprove Jesus’ divinity as they are based on assumptions and taking verses out of context.
To say that Jesus was only a prophet means he overstepped his place and even lied to, well, everyone really… and the idea that Jesus was given a gospel and then failed in a land of scribes, pharisees [who could write], sadducees [who could write] and occupied by romans with some educated servants [who would have been able to either write or order somebody else to write something...] I would find a terrible failing of Jesus, if However Jesus and his life was the message then it is up to others to write and keep faithfully what they knew….
As this is long I’m going to Submit this before I get to your other points…
What do I think about the view from the Quran?
So the idea of Jesus being the Son of God…
Well, if God had just said ‘Be’ and so it was obviously makes a mockery of both tales of Jesus’ folks - the nativity tales from Matthew and Luke and also Luke’s tale of Jesus’ visit to the temple when 12 yrs old - unless of course God decided to make Jesus as a youngster out of dust rather than a baby or perhaps why bother with all those years - just make the adult form of man and give him a name…
‘It is not for God to take a child unto Him.’ - I like telling God what He can or cannot do but I don’t think God listens when I go down that path - and I’m quite relieved about that… Are we to say what God can or cannot want to do and then say if God has “trespassed” over that then it is something hideous?
The very issue that God decided to do things the hard way, in the way that everything else is born is one of the fundamental reasons why I am a christian - I find the idea of just sitting in a cloud and saying that he would use the divine power to miss that bit out would make God a cheat.
Regarding Jesus being God…
“… It is not mine to say what I have no right to…’ (hopefully this won’t come out as a smiley.)
I’m not sure what the point of this is. Here’s Luke 1 vs 38 ‘I am the Lord’s servant, Mary answered. May it be to me as you have said. Then the angel left her.’ - If that’s not informed consent I don’t know what is… and so not only do we have something which is consensual it does also open up the possibility of Divine Parenthood.
Again I’d quote John 1 vs 1 but it’s in my previous comment and anyway - the chapter is better read as a whole…
Regarding the Crucifixion
Virtually all scholars of christianity agree that the remaining disciples/apostles (ie 11 not the normal 12)gathered scared that they’d be next - and this was the question that made me consider the resurrection - because if Jesus did die then what happened next to get the apostles and other disciples out there taking the risk to be killed off for their faith….
Now that, of course assumes the crucifixion to have gone before it… Again I see this as a question of a genuine or who is prepared to enter into the world and deal with it or just avoid the ugly, nasty bits in other words - a cheat.
About John 10vs 30 try John 10 vs 38 “But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” I’d reccomend reading the whole chapter to get the context because before that you also have this
“17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life— only to take it up again. 18 No-one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
19 At these words the Jews were again divided. 20 Many of them said, He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him? 21 But others said, These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?” from chapter 10 of John which gets to the nub of the issue - Jesus didn’t really leave the ‘prophet’ tag open for those around him and they knew it so they were divided between Mad, Possessed, even Bad or Something Else…
As a clip of John 10 vs 38 goes “the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” which I think is a little stronger than the normal use of the idea of the ’son of God’ motif… and afterwards in ch 14-17 you have Jesus saying the most remarkable things - that through our relationship with him we also become sons of God - but it hinges on Jesus’ relationship with the Father and that he pays the price for reconciling the rest of us - the entire creation, no less, to the Father in his name and that he accepts us as friends and brothers and sisters…
I may have a look at the ‘updated version’ but the verse being absent from the beginning doesn’t stop the work therein being of a completely polemical nature despite the claims of honest scholarship…
Anyway - I think I have rambled on for far too long…
My gratitude to anybody (everybody) who’s read this far - Mazin for provoking this discussion but mostly to Calia 77 for encouraging a rather long-winded debate on her blog…
// Do you think that you can know the very stuff and mind of God? Does God not reach beyond our comprehension? Or is the divine able to be measured and placed in it’s box?//
Let’s see what the the Bible tells us :
“And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all THY MIND, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.”
Mark 12:29-30.
We also read
“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”
1 Thessalonians 5:21
and “For God is not [the author] of confusion”
1 Corinthians 14:33.
So, contrary to the teachings of many, Jesus (pbuh) did not want his followers to believe everything they were told on “blind faith.” Rather, he wanted his followers to believe “with all thy mind.”
//John 1 vs 1 reads thus ‘In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.’//
You say that this verse supports trinity .
Well the problem with this verse is that it is first of all mistranslated, at the very best it speaks of a “Duality” not a “Trinity” and even if I were to stretch and strain its meaning I still cant’t get as to how this verse could meant to interpret whatsoever of a “merging” of a Holy Ghost with God and “the Word.”
You can read the Chapter on this particular verse over here
http://www.quranmalayalam.com/program/jesus/ch1.2.2.6.html
What you need to show is a SINGLE EXPLICIT VERSE from the BIBLE where God is explicitly claimed to be “three in one,” what you need to show is a verse that says something like “God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all gods, however, they are not three gods but one God,” or “God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same being,” or “God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are one and the same” etc.
I find it amazing that the Bible speaks about everything from the trial of Adam (pbuh) to what color robe Jesus (pbuh) wore while being lead to the cross, to the description of the ass Jesus (pbuh) rode, to many other side-issues not critical to basic faith. There are countless verses that continually beat us over the head that God is ONE.
“Know therefore this day, and consider [it] in thine heart, that the LORD he [is] God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else.” Deuteronomy 4:39.
“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Exodus 20:3
“For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:” Exodus 34:14
“Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior.” Isaiah 43:10-11.
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.” Isaiah 44:6
“That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.” Isaiah 45:6
“For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.” Isaiah 45:18.
“Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.” Isaiah 45:22
Jesus HIMSELF many times make such statements as “that they might know THEE the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent” John 17:3.
Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.”
John 20:17
In this verse we see that not only is God Jesus’ father, but He is also his GOD. Think about this carefully. Also notice how Jesus is equating between himself and mankind in these matters and not between himself and God. He is making it as clear as he possibly can that he is one of US and not a god.
If you claim to follow and love Jesus then you should believe in his words too as shown in the last 2 verses.
But if you choose to believe what the Church says then that’s your choice.
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” John 14:23
Muslims believe in Jesus Christ too.We are commanded in the Quran to believe in all the Prophets including Jesus.
“Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us, and that which was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the sons of Jacob, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord. 3:84
The constant theme throughout the Bible is God is ONE, He says so, Jesus Says so, Jesus says God is the ONLY true god, Jesus prays to God, Jesus performs his miracle through the “finger of God” and “can of my own self do NOTHING”..etc. Matters of basic faith such as these are spoken about clearly. They can be found in the Bible.
Where does God Himself ever claim to be triune and “three merged into one”. I am sure everyone will agree this is quite critical to basic Christian faith. There should be at least ONE verse in the whole Bible which speaks as clearly about this very fundamental and basic and crucial aspect of faith as do the verses that were mentioned previously.
I highly recommend that you read the Chapter on Trinity in the Book “What did Jesus really say?”over here.
It’s lengthy but please try too. I hope you find it enlightening.
http://www.quranmalayalam.com/program/jesus/ch1.html
//Well, if God had just said ‘Be’ and so it was obviously makes a mockery of both tales of Jesus’ folks - the nativity tales from Matthew and Luke and also Luke’s tale of Jesus’ visit to the temple when 12 yrs old - unless of course God decided to make Jesus as a youngster out of dust rather than a baby or perhaps why bother with all those years - just make the adult form of man and give him a name…//
I am afraid here you have a misunderstanding here .Muslims believe that Jesus(pbuh) was born of Mary(pbuh) miraculously without a human father.We believe in his miracles which were performed with the permission of god.The birth of Jesus is pretty much in harmony with many Biblical passages .
However we disagree that it was God who begot Jesus.To say that God begets children is a blasphemy of the highest order in Islam.
Here I will quote the verses from the Quran
Jesus’ conception, birth, and mission:
And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah has chosen you and made you pure, and has preferred you above (all) the women of creation. O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship). This is of the tidings of things hidden. We reveal it unto you (Muhammad). You were not present with them when they cast their pens (to know) which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor were you present with them when they quarreled (thereupon). (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Allah gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah). He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous. She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal has touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah creates what He will. if He decrees a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. And will make him a messenger unto the children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I announce unto you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if you are believers. And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah’s helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear you witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Our Lord! We believe in that which You have revealed and we follow him whom You have sent. Enroll us among those who witness (to the truth). And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers” A’al-Umran(3):35-54.
Well, to start with - whilst I completely agree about using my mind - even to the point of being told not to get in the way of others’ faith I also understand reaching beyond what is knowable and I don’t think I can count the number of the grains of sand and here’s something from Psalms - 139 vs 17 & the first half of vs 18 - “How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand.” There are other bits and bobs around the bible about how we can’t comprehend the being of God.
I don’t mean that we shouldn’t try because from that search we may find ever greater wisdom (and folk would tell you how much I need that)…
But to logic and demands - a demand that I produce ONE verse which lands the final proof is not necessary to show that there is a fair chance that I’m right. And before you talk about certainty - whatever happened to Faith? Of course If I can show a fair chance that the trinity is true then it also falls that Unitary God Figure is, hmm, not true…
I say that the verse John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” supports the trinity in the sense that it shows a good argument for a duality as per your requirement. Because once here I am, of course, also half way to the trinity…
And further to that midway point in Revelations ch 1 vs 17-18 “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.”
So now the problem is that there are other passages in which Jesus is seen as part of God - and equate him with the titles of God that you’ve dug out from the Old Testament…
Of course some interesting wrangling can of course straighten -
“that they might know THEE the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent” John 17:3.
If the trinity is true then when Jesus is saying that he also is including himself without the need to confuse the folk he was talking to and I think it is fair to say that Jesus is humbler than his origins… also you have to figure in exactly what Jesus thought of himself as he was also human… a mystery for sure.
I choose to believe what I believe given the gospels and the new testament through them and in the background light from the Old testament which is a truly remarkable source of wisdom - not anything a church has told me to be believe but I thank you for the choice.
But to try to lever the Holy Spirit into his rightful place there are more than one passage that goes like this - “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” 2 Corinthians 13: 14 and if you then tie them up with Jesus’ teaching on ‘The Helper’ in John’s Gospel you may find an interesting piece - and then of course there’s the discourse about the Holy Spirit with Nicodemus - also in John’s Gospel… Of course one of the best examples of the Trinity comes from the baptism of Jesus where you have the Father talking, the Son being in the middle of the river and the dove (ie The Holy Spirit) descending - yes you have to think it through but then that’s what worshipping the Lord your God with ALL your MIND includes…
Here’s a question - if you were to approach the gospels or even the whole of the new testament without the preconception of a strict singularity of God - does the new testament make MORE or LESS sense as a WHOLE with the idea of the trinity? An open mind is needed for that thought experiment but I’d recommend it.
As this is the end of the first part I’d end with the rather whacky comment that although loads of Churches say that the belief in the Trinity is dogmatically true and if you are really a christian you must agree - that’s not true - Jesus said that if anyone called on His name and followed His commands then He would give his name to the Father…. so the trinity isn’t, as far as Jesus is concerned a deal breaker. (But watch for Jesus’ comments about daring to insult ‘The Helper’
Well that was supposed to be a full stop and bracket…
Well, Mazin about the conception - so Jesus was fatherless? Didn’t God think a father was a Good Thing? I return to my argument of, well, ‘cheating’ - It’s a matter of faith I suppose - I’d rather have a God who was able to interact fully with his creation rather than just manipulate it - it also goes to some extent as to why Jesus was able to live that divine thing - a sinless existence and therefore pay the price for the creation.
Which brings us to the crucifixion…
Now I have been told by some muslim co-workers that a prophet can’t be harmed - to which my quick reply was - what about all the prophets killed in the Old Testament. How was Elijah so scared at the deaths of his fellow prophets if they weren’t even harmed? [1 Kings ch 18 vs 4 and no Obadiah didn't save all of them] And then there’s the beheading of John the Baptist - was that a strange and interesting mirage {or whatever you call them} as well as Jesus’s crucifixion…
Well I believe God was noble and generous enough to bite the bullet for the rest of us - including you Mazin - and that means the crucifixion. Other historians tell us that Jesus was crucified as well but it is an interesting thing to note that debatedly the epistle 1 Corithian 15 vs 6 “After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.” was the first account of the witnesses to Jesus after the crucifixion - note that it is even added that ‘most of whom are still living’ and whilst we are using the letters - the first chapter does go a fair way of levering the Holy Spirit into the trinity but it’s up to you to read or not to.
If Jesus didn’t have a true Father then I think that that’s cheating on God’s behalf and so it would also be if he was not crucified and that would put Jesus’ message in an unfavourable light - in the light of a parent ‘do as I say, not as I do’ regarding things like honesty and being truthful… and then of course when they’ve gone by the by you can start ripping other values out.
So why do you believe what Jesus said? Given that his statements about being ‘in the Father and the Father in him’ most then be false? or can you specifically point out to that being one of the ‘bad verses’? in which case we can argue about that old nut the manuscript tradition.
To Free to think ,free to believe
First I would thank you for your last two comments . I would apologize for not being able to respond in the past few days…due to time constraints. I am planning to to write a reply in the coming days.
Till then you can read the following short articles on Islamic beliefs if you wish .
Concept of God in Islam
http://www.iiie.net/node/17
Concept of Worship in Islam
http://www.iiie.net/node/2
Related short articles :
http://www.iiie.net/taxonomy/term/1
My sincere gratitude to anyone(or everyone) who has been reading these comments , and also to Calia for encouraging (and allowing) this discussion to take place.
Mazin
Also visit :
The Historical Fallacy of Atonement
http://www.iiie.net/node/38
Oops! It seems that the second link on The Concept of Worship in Islam is incorrect.
Here’s the correct link:
http://www.iiie.net/node/20
As a brief reply - aimed at your comment #23 - about the atonement by Jesus for the rest of us - it isn’t just in the letters of Paul - it’s also there in the passages relating to The Last Supper with the phrase of ‘… this is my blood which is shed for many… ‘and other comments to that end.
Whilst I have no objection to you using all the recourses you can find I feel, at this point to say that most of the statements I’m making, arguing for, is from memory with the use of an online concordance to point my in the direction of where specific passages are and an occasional look at the odd book. Which so far hasn’t really helped.
But I await your next reply and hope we can continue this debate, with Calia77’s permission, of course.
Keep on going, guys!
@Free to think , free to believe
thanks for your comments . I shall try to write a reply to the question you have posed as best as I can….I wasn’t able to reply for the past week or so as I had gone for Umrah (lesser pilgrimage in Makkah , Saudi Arabia ) .
// if you were to approach the gospels or even the whole of the new testament without the preconception of a strict singularity of God - does the new testament make MORE or LESS sense as a WHOLE with the idea of the trinity?//
Before answering your question, I would very briefly mention what are Islamic beliefs concerning Jesus , God , Trinity, Salvation and Atonement as we are taught in the Quran which was REVEALED to Prophet Muhammad .
* God is One. He is indivisible. He has no equal.
* God has no children nor parents. There is no other god in existence other than God Himself.
* God is not a “Trinity” .
* Jesus (pbuh) was a human being. He was not God, but only an elect messenger of God.
* God does not hold anyone responsible for the sin of anyone else, nor does He forgive the sins of one man by sacrificing another.
* God does not give preference to a certain race, color, nation, lineage or anything else above any other. Only a person’s individual actions and worship will distinguish them in the eyes of God.
* God’s justice refuses that any human being bear the sin of any other.
* God is a merciful god who bestows His forgiveness without a price or asking for any compensation.
* Entering into heaven requires both faith and work. Neither one can stand alone.
* The word for God in Arabic is Allah who is the supreme God of all creation. He is known as “God the Father” to the Christians, and as “El” or “Yahweh” to the Jews. It is important to distinguish that the one referred to in Islam as “Allah” is not the “Trinity” which the Church refers to as “God.” The Muslim “Allah” is only the Christian’s “God the Father.”
Now I would say that if there is any truth to the above assertions made by the Quran 1400 years ago( 600 years after Jesus ) then these claims deserve to be studied with an open mind and open heart. In this comment I would discuss only Trinity since your question is related to this .
Getting down to the actual response ,
I would say that the WHOLE of the Bible would make sense if we are to approach it believing that God is ONE. The obvious reasons for this approach is :
a) There are countless verses in the OT and NT that tell us EXPLICITY AND COMMAND US TO BELIEVE THAT God is ONE . Some of which I quoted in a previous comment.(Isaiah 43:10-11, Deuteronomy 4:39, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 45:6, Isaiah 45:22, Exodus 20:3, Exodus 34:14, Mark 12:29-32)
b) All of these statements are clear-cut, decisive and unequivocally support the Oneness of God. They are not abstract , or convoluted or have “hidden” meanings.
After this I would objectively search the Bible for any explicit mention of trinity or a look for quote that commands me to believe in it or any reference where this doctrine is clearly explained. Is this not fair ?
Now, Consider the following :
1. There is no explicit mention of the doctrine of trinity anywhere in the NT or the OT . What I mean by this is there is no statement of the type “God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all gods, however, they are not three gods but one God,” or “God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same being,” or “God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are one and the same” etc. The Bible which speaks in so detail on the trial of Adam to the description of the animal Jesus was riding is strangely silent on this very fundamental belief of Christianity.
2.If trinity were really the nature of God then I would naturally expect that all prophets in the NT and OT would be continuously drumming this into the minds of the people. However nothing of this sort is to be found.
The very FIRST COMMANDMENT tells us that God is ONE. It doesn’t say God is “three in one ” or He is “One god in three persons”.
3. If God is a trinity then God Himself would have told us so clearly, directly, and without beating around the bush, just as He clearly tells us that He is One in so many places in the Bible, for example:
“Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior.” Isaiah 43:10-11
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:” Deuteronomy 6:4
4. The most respected Biblical Encyclopaedias, Biblical dictionaries and commentaries recognize that “Trinity” is a fabrication inserted into the Bible by the Church. It was never taught by Jesus or his disciples .
Here are some quotes to prove this :
In “The New Catholic Encyclopedia” (Bearing the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, indicating official Church approval) we get a glimpse of how the concept of the Trinity was not introduced into Christianity until close to four hundred years after Jesus (pbuh):
“…….It is difficult in the second half of the 20th century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the Mystery of the trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics,THAT ONE SHOULD NOT SPEAK OF TRINITARIANISM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WITHOUT SERIOUS QUALIFICATION . There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, , THE LAST QUADRANT OF THE 4TH CENTURY. IT WAS ONLY THEN THAT WHAT MIGHT BE CALLED THE DEFINITIVE TRINITARIAN DOGMA ‘ONE GOD IN THREE PERSONS’ BECAME THOROUGHLY ASSIMILATED INTO CHRISTIAN LIFE AND THOUGHT … it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development” (emphasis added).
The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV, p. 295
“Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon(Bible).” The Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger, pp. 782-783)
Tom Harpur, a former minister and the religion editor of the Toronto Star, writes in his book “For Christ’s Sake”:
“What is most embarrassing for the church is the difficulty of proving any of these statements of dogma from the new Testament documents. You simply cannot find the doctrine of the Trinity set out anywhere in the Bible. St. Paul has the highest view of Jesus’ role and person, but nowhere does he call him God. Nor does Jesus himself anywhere explicitly claim to be the second person in the Trinity, wholly equal to his heavenly Father. As a pious Jew, he would have been shocked and offended by such an Idea….(this is) in itself bad enough. But there is worse to come. This research has lead me to believe that the great majority of regular churchgoers are, for all practical purposes, tritheists. That is, they profess to believe in one God, but in reality they worship three..”
In “The Dictionary of the Bible,” bearing the Nihil Obstat, Imprimatur, and Imprimi Potest (official Church seals of approval), we read:
“the trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. That belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief.”
The Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, S.J., p. 899
So they all admit it!! Jesus’ twelve apostles lived and died never having heard of any “Trinity” ! So did their children! So did their children’s children!
If the “Trinity” is the true nature of God, then why did Jesus (pbuh) leave his closest and dearest followers so completely and utterly baffled and lost that they never even realized the “true” nature of God? Why did he leave them steeped in such black darkness that neither they nor their children, nor yet their children’s children would ever come to recognize the “true” nature of the One they are to worship? Do we really want to allege that Jesus was so thoroughly incompetent in the discharge of his duties that he left his followers in such utter chaos that it would take them fully three centuries after his departure to finally piece together the nature of the One whom they are to worship?
Why did Jesus never, even once, just say “God, the Holy Ghost and I are three Persons in one Trinity. It is a mystery. Worship all of us as one and have blind faith”? Couldn’t it possibly be that he didn’t say it nor did he teach it BECAUSE IT ISN’T TRUE ?!
As Muslims, we do not subscribe to the belief that Jesus (pbuh) was incompetent in his duties nor that he would neglect to teach his followers the most major issue of his religion, the issue of “Who is God,” preferring to leave that up to the Church councils and their notorious inquisitions. If we do not know who God is then we know nothing. You would agree that this is the hand-down most important issue of any religion. If it was true that God is a trinity then Jesus (pbuh) would have said so clearly, just as he did so when he clearly told us that God is ONE (i.e. Mark 12:29-32, etc.
5) Then, we need to study this doctrine of trinity from a logical point of view to see if it is in harmony with what Jesus actually taught throughout the NT because the Bible says that God’s nature can never be of confusion ( 1 Corinthians 14 : 33 ) and also we are told to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” [1 Thessalonians 5:21 ]
This has been studied briefly in that book over here
http://www.quranmalayalam.com/program/jesus/ch1.2.8.html
Well, I guess this much is enough for the first part and I would end with one quote from Suzanne Haneef, in her book What Everyone Should Know About Islam and Muslims (Library of Islam, 1985)
“But God is not like a pie or an apple which can be divided into three thirds which form one whole; if God is three persons or possesses three parts, He is assuredly not the Single, Unique, Indivisible Being which God is and which Christianity professes to believe in.” (pp. 183-184)
In my next comment I would try to reply to the verses you have presented supporting Trinity . And by the way , the book which I have requested you to study is not exactly polemical ….it simply shows what were the real teachings of Jesus Christ as opposed to stuff attributed to him. It also proves from the Bible the beliefs of Islam which I briefly presented above.
Well, Mazin, it’s good to know you’re back - I hope you had a good time on your trip [spiritual renewal amongst other things like either returning to a place where you still know folk or tourism]…
I think I’ll wait for your second part before replying to this as that could wind up derailing the thing down a side track.
// John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” supports the trinity in the sense that it shows a good argument for a duality as per your requirement. Because once here I am, of course, also half way to the trinity…//
Please read the sub-section 1.2.2.6 on this particular verse in that e-book on that site . What is problematic with this verse being used to support “Trinity”, is that ,it is first of all , mistranslated , in the correct translation it can’t be used to support even a “Duality”, it ignores the basic message of John which is that God(the father) is greater than Jesus and thus it’s a classic example of a verse being pulled out of vacuum to support a particular doctrine .
Even if we are willing to ignore these issues, I would ask that doesn’t it seem a little strange that we are left to “piece together ” God’s very own nature beginning from implicit references of duality ? . Is it so difficult for God to come out and say in the Bible “I am Triune/One God in Three persons/three gods merged into one/I , Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One and the same” . Just look how much less space that would require . Just look how clear would that be .
//Revelations ch 1 vs 17-18 “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.”//
How this verse supports trinity is simply beyond my comprehension . Is is because of the words “The first” and “The last” ? Well…All I have got to say here is that even Muslims and Jews believe that God is “The First” and “The Last” .
In the 13 Jewish Principles of faith the fourth one reads: I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, Blessed be His Name, is the first and the last. Yet no Jew has got any problem believing in this and also believing that God is One and vehementally opposing any Trinity ..
Whatever be the case its not the same as saying “God , Jesus and the holy Spirit are one and the same “.
// “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” 2 Corinthians 13: 14//
Just because Jesus , God and holy Spirit appears in one sentence , doesn’t neceessarily mean that they need to merged into trinity .
If I say: “May the genius of Einstein, the philosophy of Descartes, and the strength of Schwarzenegger be with you all” does this require all three to be joined in a “Trinity”? Does it require that Einstein is Descartes ?
//If Jesus didn’t have a true Father then I think that that’s cheating on God’s behalf //
If, for Jesus, not having a human father is a proof for God being his “true” father and a proof for his divinty then what about Adam ? He didn’t have a father and a mother at all . He was created from dust . That would give Adam a greater status of divinity than Jesus .
//“But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.//
This verse , at best , is an implicit reference to “Duality” and not “Trinity” . Then , if its intended meaning really was that Jesus and the Father are one , then we should also read :
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.”
John 17:20-22
So, Is all of mankind also part of the “Trinity”?
Such terminology can be found in many other places, read for example:
“Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit,”
1 Corinthians 6:15-17
And also
“One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
Ephesians 4:6
“For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”
1 Corinthians 12:12-14
Indeed, the very fact that the “trinity” is not to be found anywhere throughout the Bible except as a direct result of deliberate mistranslation of the verses (see chapter one of “What Did Jesus Really Say” ) finally resulted in the Church finding it necessary to “fix” the Bible by inserting fabricated verses which would make this doctrine “clear,” such as the famous case of the verse of 1 John 5:7 which has now been universally recognized by the majority of Christian scholars as a false insertion of the Church and is no longer found in any modern Bible except for the King James Bible
It reads :
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:7
Next read ,
“And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have SENT.” John 17:3.
Notice that Jesus (pbuh) did not say “Us the only true God” He did not say “Me the only true God”
He only said what God confirmed in the Qur’an that he said, namely, “YOU the ONLY true God”
Notice the word “ONLY.” If he did not use this word then we could imply that he had left the door open for someone else to be God or “part of God” in addition to God Himself. However, Jesus (pbuh) made sure to close that door and lock it tight. He did so by using the explicit word “ONLY.” How could he possibly make it any more clear than that?
And then ,I wonder why you wish to “wrangle” with Jesus’s plain and decisive words to prove otherwise that he is “including” himself in the “trinity”. Is it because of you pre-acceptance of “Trinity” that you wish to “interpret” Jesus words to prove the contrary of what he is saying ?
Remember what Jesus said in John ,
“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will KEEP MY WORDS : and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”
John 14:23
Jesus (peace be upon him) clearly outlines here that it is his words that we must keep and that shall lead to the love of God. Naturally, I wish to know what Jesus taught about trinity so that I might follow his command, and his alone. Is this not fair ?
Also read :
“Jesus saith unto her, …I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to MY GOD , and your God.” John 20:17
So if Jesus were God, then that would mean that God too has a God which would mean that there are 2 gods . However the Bible is explicitly in support of One God alone .
Then , not only is God Jesus’ father, but He is also his GOD. Also notice how Jesus is equating between himself and mankind in these matters and not between himself and God. He is making it as clear as he possibly can that he is one of US and not a god. Why did he not just say “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father .” … and stop !?
Why did Jesus feel it necessary to add the words “…and to my God, and your God.” What additional information was he trying to convey to us with these extra words? Think about it carefully.
Well…that’s it…..I guess I will wait for your reply to these 2 comments.
I would also thank anyone for reading till here .
Well Mazin, certainly a substantial amount to reply to.
Starting near the beginning - if Adam was made out of dust and Jesus was fathered by God - How would Adam be ‘more divine’?
I guess this is one part where we are not going to agree but have to accept the other’s view as intrinsic to their beliefs - I believe from the ‘birth narratives’ both Matthew and Luke’s that God fathered Jesus… Matthew 1 vs 18 ‘This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. His mother was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.’ and then Luke 1 vs 34-38 and then the rest of it - how you see the Holy Spirit also changes what you understand from the readings…. but I would go so far as to say that here we have support for both Son of God and the Holy Spirit…
But going back to Adam for a moment - did he have a good understanding of God as he walked with Him in the garden of Eden? Did he know of the books of the law? Did Abraham have know God but didn’t know of what the prophets would later say about poverty and the evils of social injustice? All along the history of the tradition more has been revealed.
Jesus spoke in parables that the people did not understand, including the apostles to whom he would explain them to - but then we still have John and James wanting to sit at his right and left side in heaven…
And then let us talk about manuscripts and insertions… Even if the Quran was revealed as a totality to Muhammad - the actual version of what he was given wasn’t decided upon for approximately a hundred years - and there were differences within the copies that were fought over. Christians may well have argued about what books and which ‘versions’ of them became what are known as the New Testament but it was a process of debate not clashing swords - which do you believe is a better way of deciding which manuscript is more faithful?
My ‘challenge’ - possibly a poor choice of word was to read the entire New Testament and then as a whole think about whether or not the idea of the trinity made more sense out of it than not. The Old Testament does have bits and pieces in it but I would agree that they are minimal notwithstanding that - due to a comment by Jesus where he says that no-one has seen the Father - which would include Moses and the rest of them - we are left with the question, as christians as to Who did they see. My answer is that they either saw the Holy Spirit or Jesus.
To talk of their understanding is interesting as they were constantly being given more revelations as time passed but note that they wanted a king so that they could be like other nations and thereby were saying that God wasn’t good enough - which God had to point out to the prophet Samuel as he was taking it personally as well…
And so we had the New Testament - the quote about the ‘First and Las’ from the book of Revelations comes from the mouth of Christ to his disciple in a vision. Indeed in the parable of the Vineyard or Tenants in Luke 20 vs 9-19 and in Mark 12 vs 1-12 we have the story of God giving the land to the Israelites (many times in the Old Testament is this image used to describe the land they had been given - although it can be argued that Abraham paid for a chunk of land - I forget where it is supposed to have been) and then the prophets being sent as the servants and now, finally the son comes - which in the local tradition the son is equated with the authority of the father - something we find difficult to understand NOW but way back THEN - they knew… and so it also includes a prediction of his death…
But we can always argue about insertions…
Why not just say ‘Hey, I’m part of the Trinity!’ well to some extent I’d say that Jesus did say things which implied that and if you scrape them altogether you get a pretty interesting argument - but you could also say ‘Why did Jesus use parables that he knew wouldn’t be understood?’ which is what he did. It comes back to leaving us to worship God with all of our minds - as you correctly pointed out.
I would agree that God is not like a pie to be cut up into three pieces but then whilst I think God wants us to be able to divine His purpose and concerns and to put them into practice in our lives - I do not think that even if God were ‘merely’ the Father that we would understand Him perfectly his thoughts being ‘higher’ than ours and I think it is a reductive argument to say that if we do not understand something then it can’t be true - to falsely reduce something down to what we can understand can sometimes mean we loose sight of important details and meanings.
According to God’s law someone should not be punished for another’s wrongdoing but where does the ’scapegoat’ come into this? It’s the Old Testament thing of getting a goat every so often and sacrificing it for the sins you didn’t know you had… so an innocent creature bore the sins of others… and so you also have the possibility of someone, freely, taking the blame onto themselves on somebody else’s behalf - it may not be justice but it is a merciful act for one to take another’s blame and I don’t see that outlawed in the Old Testament and this is what is the hinge of Christ’s sacrifice - that he did not need to take our wrongs on his shoulders but that, out of love for us, he chose to.
I look forward to your reply.